Can We Talk About Race Without Offending?
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In this week's episode of the 'All Inclusive Podcast,' Natasha speaks with Aggie Mutuma, an award winning Diversity, Inclusion, and Anti-racism expert, and the CEO of Mahogany Inclusion Partners.
As a fervent advocate, executive leadership coach, and compelling speaker, Aggie commits herself to nurturing inclusive environments within various organizations. Recognized by her peers as one of the top 20 Most Influential HR Thinkers of 2022, Aggie’s work involves partnering with executive teams to roll out effective DEI and Anti-Racism strategies. Her extensive portfolio covers numerous sectors, including global FTSE100 companies, consultancy agencies, retail businesses, alongside the third and public sectors. Through strategic insight and her unique approach of empathetic yet challenging coaching, Aggie leads executive teams and their organizations toward significant change, fostering spaces where open communication, behavioural adjustments, and the development of inclusive cultures are paramount. A trusted advisor for the CIPD and a sought-after speaker, Aggie has delivered presentations at distinguished forums such as the CBI and CIPD Annual Conference.
Episode Highlights:
Aggie’s DEI Genesis: Childhood Encounters with Racism (02:45)
Inclusion as a Strategy: Beyond Well-Being and Talent Attraction (12:15)
Coaching Leaders on Inclusion: Strategies and Challenges (17:00)
The Power of Principles Over Policies for True Inclusion (22:40)
Addressing Unconscious Bias and Creating Inclusive Spaces (33:30)
The Biggest Challenges in DEI Implementation (44:15)
Advice for DEI Leaders: Taking a Human-Centered Approach (49:30)
Connect with Aggie Mutuma on LinkedIn to follow her impactful work in the DEI space.
Transcript
Natasha: Hi Aggie.
Aggie: Hi, how are you doing, Natasha?
Natasha: I'm good, I'm good, how are you?
Aggie: I'm well, well thank you. That's good to hear.
Natasha: So let's kick things off, tell our listeners a little bit more about you and how you became involved in diversity, equity and inclusion work.
Aggie: Sure, no problem at all. So my Genesis story in the DNI space actually begins a long, long time ago when I was about five or six. I won't tell you how long, a long time ago, just believe me. Well that's about five or six and I remember being in the playground and experienced some racism from some of the children, so not a nice experience. But I remember back then thinking to myself, well this feels awful, this feels horrible, I don't deserve this, you know, why is this happening?
I also remember thinking to myself, whatever I do and you know, whatever I become, I'm going to make sure that others don't feel like this. So I guess that's my Genesis story. I wouldn't have called it inclusion clearly as a five or six year old, but that's essentially the principle that I've taken through my whole life. And then growing up in the UK, being more aware of what's going on, in the sort of late 80s, early 90s, there was quite a presence of the National Front in the UK, certainly where I lived as well. So I'd see things graffitied on walls, I'd hear people founting things and for a long time the Union Jack and also the English flag for me used to signal, oh that's someone's house, it's probably going to open the window and scream something as I'm walking down the road for a very long time. So again, lots of experience of that discrimination.
Fast forward to my career as an HR leader, so as we've shared, previously I have led people teams for organizations that most of us will probably recognize, such as Tesco Stores Limited, McDonald's, restaurants, Dream's Beds, and my roles have tended to be holistic HR. I call it holistic, most will say generalist, but I'll say holistic. So everything from recruitment, what's our employee value proposition, why would people want to work with us, what are the capabilities of the organization, right through to the end, whether that's a merger or acquisition, redundancy program, whatever that may be, and then all the beautiful pieces in between. So succession, talent development, values, behaviors, and diversity and inclusion as a beautiful golden thread running through that.
Now what I came to understand, I love the whole piece, is that it doesn't matter how great your well-being strategy is, if it's not inclusive, it is not going to deliver what you want it to deliver. It doesn't matter how great your talent attraction strategy is, if it's not inclusive, it's not going to deliver what you want it to, not just from an identity point of view, so it's not just about women or people of color or the LGBT community, it won't deliver in the most effective way for everything. So inclusion really is this beautiful golden thread that runs all the way through.
On top of that, as a lot of people leaders end up doing, I am a coach, which I love, I love being able to say people on their journeys. Previously in my HR director roles, I would tend to coach white males because they happen to be the execs in the organizations and in conversations about inclusion, whether it's gender or LGBTQ plus community or race, they were really reticent to engage. They didn't want to engage in the conversation either from a fair point of view, they didn't want to get the words wrong or say the wrong thing, offend someone, or another big driver for them was that they thought that inclusion was not about them. It's about everybody who's not a white man, it's about the women, it's about the people of color, it's about the LGBT community, those with disabilities.
And certainly from where I stand in my principles, it's inclusion is actually about everybody and diversity is about everyone, showing up in the way that is most authentic for them in that environment and therefore giving their best ideas, working through things the best way that works for them and therefore making better decisions for the organization. So I guess the three things around my experience growing up in the UK, my experience in HR and in terms of the full employee lifecycle at a strategic level and then also my coaching, those three things, many others I'm sure came together and that's where Mahogany Inclusion Partners was born and that's where I then focus solely on diversity and inclusion.
Natasha: Oh well, I mean that's a fantastic journey, they're fascinating one for sure and I think it's great to hear that you have been able to transition kind of fairly smoothly and be able to use your personal experiences from a young age and apply those effectively in the work that you're doing now and what you have been doing through your career. It's very people-centered which is great. What strategies have you found to be most effective when speaking with leaders about race?
Aggie: Wonderful, really really good question. So what I will say, I'm going to do a little a little sign post and I hope that's okay. On the CIPD website, so the Chartered Institute of Personal Development, there's a video of me talking about exactly that so check that out for the long version of this answer I'm going to give you now. But what I will say is that the first or the first principles or strategies is around understanding that this conversation is not easy for anyone. It is not easy for white people or people who don't experience racism in the same way because it's not a conversation they really had to have really and it's not easy for those who do experience racism because it's not a conversation we want to have. We'd rather talk about something completely different and we'd rather race and didn't and exist so it's a really tough conversation for everyone to have. And then there's also the piece around how the conversations had externally. A lot of the ways it's had is it's quite there's quite a lot of tension in it. There's a bit of finger pointing, slight understatement, there's a lot of finger pointing and it can be had at a moral level as in if you do things that are racist or if you say something racist you're a bad person and if you don't you're a good person. And that's not really true about the race and racism and especially for that the conversation and organizations to make things better. It's important to park the morality piece and also understand it's difficult for everyone.
And what I tend to do and what I tend to share and where I start the conversation with leaders is around you know what do you want for your organization? Let's park race for a second we'll come back to it in a second but what do you want for your organization? So looking at the business outcomes, looking at the the objectives of the organization. So what is then down the level what does that mean for your people? So what do you want for your people? And all leaders I'll even say most all leaders leadership teams I've spent time with always want a great environment for their people. They want people to grow, they want people to develop, they want people to therefore deliver for the organization because those ingredients give us that delivery. And then we talk about that line but that most organizations have around we are an equal opportunities employer that most organizations have probably had since the mid 90s maybe even earlier than that.
But I say to them how true is that? How true is that in your organization? So I'm not telling them I'm asking them and again in most cases leaders will say actually it's not true for everyone. It's true for some of us but it's not true for everyone. So with those almost irrefutable truths that they've shared you know we want to win this organization, we want our people to have a great time or a great experience here, we know that it's not equal right now. Right now let's talk so it's almost where do we agree or where do they agree then start the conversation there. So I'd say that's definitely a brilliant place to start.
Natasha: Yeah it's fantastic. I mean I think from what you said what's standing out for me is asking those open questions rather than you standing there and telling them this is what you need to do, this is what racism looks like and things like that. It's more about leading them on their own personal journeys or their own journeys to understanding what it actually will look like for the people that they work with.
Aggie: Absolutely and we do get to the place where we talk about how racism shows up and there are the obvious and overt ways in which race shows up and in most cases people understand those and they probably wouldn't enact those, certainly not in the workplace anyway, they wouldn't do that. It's more the microaggression, the covert ways and the unintentional ways in which there are barriers or something's said or something's done that people don't understand the impact of that. That's where there's more of that sharing around, you probably won't realise this or you may not recognise this but here are some of the things and you can see those light bulbs going off in people's heads and actually oftentimes it's actually relating it to their own experience because all of this that we're talking about whether it's a child that's fully sensed with a self-versing inclusion, it's all about the human experience.
What's the human experience in our organisations and how do certain identities potentially mean we have a different experience? So when I speak to leaders about tell me about a time when you didn't belong, you know when you personally didn't belong and it could be a new football team, it could be I don't know a new cricket team, a new workplace, a new city you've moved in, most of us regardless of our identities have examples of when we haven't belonged. So if you can link it to that and say right so this is how your people may be feeling and this is why that might be happening and here are some ways if you're not consciously inclusive you're probably going to be excluding someone just like if you walk down the road and you're not looking where you're going, you're not conscious about where you're walking you're going to bump into someone aren't you?
It doesn't mean you're meant to but if you're focusing you're not going to let me look where I'm going and actually see it happening a lot of people on their phones now don't you? But you know if you if you're not focused and intentional about what you're doing you're probably going to be excluding someone.
Natasha: I totally agree. I think that's really helpful and I can totally see how connecting personal experiences to that individual helps them understand a little bit more about what people from underrepresented groups go through when they experience racism or when they hit a barrier to trying to develop and move forward in their careers at work. Thinking about organisational structures a little bit can you give some examples of inclusive policies that you have found to be kind of instrumental in advancing diversity equity and inclusion?
Aggie: Sure no problem so I'm going to answer the question slightly differently because although I've grown up in HR and I've definitely written it for a few policies I am more of a fan of principles which then dictate what the policies are. So where I definitely start with leaders, organisations, HR teams is back to that question what do you want for your people so that that's really helpful. So therefore if this is what we want for our people and this is the inclusion statement or the the employee value proposition statement what are the principles that we'd want to apply to every single situation and yes there's some outliers here and there but in most of situations across our business and this works beautifully especially in organisations that potentially have a global footprint perhaps or they're situated in different areas or they have different workforces an office workforce a manufacturing workforce or retail workforce.
What are the principles that we want to apply regardless of where you are in our organisation and then once we've agreed those principles and I would say probably a handful let's say seven at the most that we'd want to apply in most cases they're helpful because they're almost like a guiding light where if the policy doesn't say anything about it you still have a guiding light and also they help from a consistency point of view that you've got that shared experience across the organisation. Then those principles can drive what those policies are in any part of the organisation so whether it's our recruitment policy if we've said that one of our principles is that we want to reflect the societies in which we serve if that take that as a as a as a principle then that means for a recruitment point of view we need to look at our workforce where it is right now and how does it how reflective is it if it's not yet then what are we doing about it to bring our employees in if one of our principles is around trusting our employees as an example when it comes to things such as hybrid working I'm just picking a policy when it comes to things such as hybrid working as an example it's about trust so let's ask our people what works for them let's ask them to think about because we trust them to do the right thing for the team and the business let's ask them how they think is going to work for the team and let's talk about how it's going to work for the organisation and have a grown-up conversation, where the individuals come prepared saying this is how it works for me this is how it works for my team, this is how I think it will work for for the organisation and then we can have a grown-up conversation about it and is that there are yes as you said it great brilliant or is that actually these bits work these bits don't work quite well let's meet in the middle so we trust our people so we're going to have grown-up conversations with them so that's a couple of examples of how those principles then filter down so I would say principles led first and then how do those principles then apply from a policy point of view.
Natasha: Oh fantastic I mean those are some great examples that you've given there and it it does make a lot of sense to start with principles rather than just go straight into doing policies. You've mentioned that through your experience in HR you've obviously yourself written these policies and the current work that you do you work with organisations in helping them to develop these principles. In doing that, what has been your biggest challenge?
Aggie: I think that the biggest challenge is I'm going to say sometimes the leaning on policies and I'll speak about that not just in terms of D&I but just in terms of the the whole experience in that policies are written in a certain place and time right based on law based on whoever's happens to be writing it quite frankly is awesome times isn't it and I've seen wonderful ones that are human centric and they've got that trust in all the principles etc definitely the ones we write and support with but we've also seen some that are very legalistic and what I find is without the right training and support and guidance and coaching and development managers will pick up that policy and read it and that's what they'll do so if it's not inclusive if it's not human centric if it doesn't have trust in it managers will literally pick up a policy and say oh the policy says no sorry Roger you can't have your time off or sorry whoever you can't have your time off rather than that human centric piece so I'm not sure if I answered your question actually.
Natasha: No no I think you do definitely because my follow-up question is how important does kind of language play when we're talking because I know we do it's one thing that we do talk about when we're speaking on trying to create these inclusive environments it's the language that we use so actually your challenge that you've just spoken about to me that's one thing that stands out, is the language that's being used.
Aggie: Language is important um I'm gonna say two things probably more two things come to mind right now so which is really really important and also at the same time what is true is that we we shouldn't get stuck in language and say that we can't take action because we haven't got the right language and all the language is um I've coached a number of leaders who were stuck they're like I want to say something I want to share I want to speak um but one I'm going to be on the stage so there's no way I'm gonna go and do something I'm not comfortable with and say the wrong thing um but also rather than get it wrong and I've seen people getting dragged on social media.
I think that's the language. My kids will kill me for saying that but anyway so I'm going to step back as a leader and say nothing because I'd rather not get it wrong the the sad thing that happens is that your people think you don't care your people think you're not interested because you're saying nothing um so it is important but please don't let it be a barrier to stop you from from speaking. I mean what I would suggest is if you're not sure um get some help and don't ask your black and brown people in the organization because there's a lot of weight in feeling as though you have to answer the questions all the time. Seek some support. I always say to my children, Google's your best friend um or get some some support their organizations like mine, others who can support you with that and then also ask the person in front of you.
An example for me that I'll always give is that I'm more than happy to be called a black woman because I am a black woman and I'm happy to people you for people use phrases like people of color however um in my earlier part of my career if you'd said I was a black woman um first of all I would have probably said women sounds a bit old I'm old now so I'm okay with that older that's not okay with it but also um because of my journey and because the experience I had when I was younger I didn't actually like the phrase black only because it used to be followed by something horrible and that's how I understood and knew the word and that's what I came to expect but I've moved in my experience also people of color, if you speak to someone who maybe has family in America or they lived in America it points to language that was used in the 60s which wasn't great so they don't love that term necessarily sometimes or people sometimes don't like it so I might say yep fine to say people of color to me but if they said it to you potentially Natasha if you said I don't prefer that term please don't go and say well Aggie said it was fine because that's great for Aggie, Natasha doesn't like it so it's educate yourself get some support but also listen to the person in front of you as well and that would be the same for anything actually. I'm gonna add that's not just race I'm gonna say it's the same for the LGBTQ plus community it's the same for disabilities because there's um we moved from uh saying people are disabled to talk about them being disabled by society or having a disability but now we're moving back to disabled because people aren't disabled it's a society that makes them disabled so it's the same for for many.
Natasha: I agree I think that insight that you've given can be applied to marginalized groups. I think the key for me in in what you said is just to be open and to be aware and ask the question as to do you prefer this term or is that okay for me to say that like just ask and I think you'll then be able to make an informed decision as to whether the particular language that you're using is is going to be well received or not.
Aggie: Yeah and sometimes you can't always ask because it can get kind of clumsy can't it if you're like I'm a little far away now and let's check with Natasha if she prefers people of color that she likes but you know it could get a little bit clumsy but I think certainly when someone does say that doesn't quite work for me, I mean I've had people say well Jane down the road says it's fine I'm like that's nice for Jane because Jane's okay with that.
It's more just making sure this don't be dismissive if someone's telling you like um I don't like this and they've given you an explanation just be open to receive that that feedback.
Natasha: I think that's the thing as well is that I find a lot of of people when they talk about diversity actually inclusion they feel as though we are critiquing them or we're saying that this work needs to be done in a negative way like it's coming from a place of negativity so everything you're doing is wrong, you are bad for doing this or for being like this we're going to try and make you better we want you to be good, like it's that's not what we're trying to say we're just trying to, I feel like we're trying to open everyone's eyes a little bit wider to ensure that they can see that there are people in your peripheral vision that you are excluding intention some may be intentional most it's unintentional and so it's just I think it's just trying to educate and provide the right tools and resources for people to be able to ensure that everyone is really genuinely being included and they feel like they belong there at the same time as well which it's another whole conversation I think is belonging we can talk about that for another half an hour I think.
Aggie: You're right Natasha I think um, I've definitely had sessions with leaders and these are these are board leaders we're talking about here where at the end of the conversation they've been like oh my gosh thank you Aggie we'll just talk about race by the way which is not the easiest conversation like oh you're welcome thank you and yes um I thought you're gonna come and tell us off and tell us all the things we're doing wrong so exactly what you've just spoken about and and I get it because some of the way we do have not we you and I clearly know Tasha because we're not there, we're on the same page yeah but the way the conversation is had especially on social media which is super divisive etc you can see why people feel like they're being told off all the time you can see that and yes there are some behaviours that we need to say that's not helpful, that's not inclusive sometimes that does happen but in most cases you know none of us who are alive today created racism none of us did and so that's one truth another truth is that there are the system still lives and breathes is another truth and the other truth is that it lives and breathes in our organizations and it means that some people do have more of the of the um uh if we're going to call it a cake if we must then they should bigger slices than they potentially should and some people don't and some people do um enjoy the privileges and some people don't and it's about how do we equalize that respecting understanding the fact that no one in this organization made racism and there'll be things that have been happening unintentionally as well.
Natasha: Thank you so much Aggie um before you do have to leave us, I would love to hear a some parting piece of advice that you can give to those leaders out there that are are leading the charge. So they're working in diversity, equity and inclusion as well as you are um and they're trying to make a change what advice would you give to them.
Aggie: Thank you um the advice I would give to them is, if they're not doing this already which I'm sure a lot of us are is um take a very human centered approach and meet people where they are. Yes there are some as we said before some behaviors that didn't be called out or to be clear that that's not acceptable or that's not helpful or that doesn't lean into the values that we've a spouse on our website so we need to do to have some of those conversations I have and I sometimes do have some of those conversations as well but more often than not it's about people who've got a certain lived experience they've experienced life in a certain way which means that they don't understand what it's like to experience race and they don't see it because they haven't had to experience it necessarily so maybe having that compassionate challenge approach which is which is um what I tend to have and I don't know if you can see you probably can just about see love above my head so I think I'm gonna say compassionate challenge in terms of love but definitely for yourself I think we are um running the race um and we're holding the baton you know it's been handed to us from people who fought before and you know did the work before and in a in a much more overt way.
I would suggest we're running our leg off of the off there of the race and holding the baton sometimes it's okay to put it down because this work can be quite taxing emotionally and mentally and everything else put the baton down sometimes rest and recuperate if you need to and then when you're ready pick it back up again um and keep going you know we need to uh change um some of the experiences that our people are experiencing and I mean people in this fuller sense um in workplaces you know we've got the next generation that's coming up you know little people being born right now that are coming up as well and let's keep doing what we can to make their experiences a more positive one when they reach the world of work.
Natasha: Oh that's some great advice there Aggie thank you so much. I know Mahogany Inclusion Partners you do a lot of work with organizations but also for individuals as well in trying to bring out more awareness, trying to get the information out there to them. So for our listeners if they want to learn a little bit more how can they do that?
Aggie: Thank you for saying that. So absolutely, Mahogany Inclusion Partners I think if you google it should come up it's mahoganyinclusionpartners.com as you'll find out about all the work we do supporting organizations on their inclusion journeys in the fullest sense but also end their racial equity journeys as well and I'm also a coach as well so I do coach a lot of underrepresented groups but also leaders on their journeys whether it's their journeys from a diversity and inclusion point of view where there's just general sort of life and leadership coaching so if you want to connect with me then it's Aggie and then Yemurai which is my middle name so Y-E-M-U-R-A-I, Mutuma on LinkedIn um so find me there.
Natasha: oh fantastic well I will be linking down below the episode links to your LinkedIn profile as you said and also to your website so all of those resources will be accessible to everyone that is listening so they can go and access that um please don't come for me Aggie if you get your inbox flooded with people um but thank you.
I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today um I appreciate you taking the time out, appreciate all the work that you're doing in the space um it is important, it is impactful and just keep going thank you.
Aggie: Thank you Natasha I love what you're doing as well so you same to you too keep going.